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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 21:42:05
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| So it is possible if a drow knows about the existence of Eilistraee or Vhaerun or Ghaunadaur to pray to them, just like a lip service when needed. Like when stealing something to Vhaerun or when trying to cross a cavern that is filled with slimes to Ghaunadaur to spare him etc.? Even if the drow is Lolthite. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2012 : 21:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
So it is possible if a drow knows about the existence of Eilistraee or Vhaerun or Ghaunadaur to pray to them, just like a lip service when needed. Like when stealing something to Vhaerun or when trying to cross a cavern that is filled with slimes to Ghaunadaur to spare him etc.? Even if the drow is Lolthite.
Yes clearly, at least based on what Ed has said. The deities use Dreams as one way to communicate, deities can not stop others from doing the same, well some might try however that would result in a dream war type of thing that between the powers no mortal would receive a dream.
In FR deities are well known to exist, if you were to travel by water giving pray for safe passage clearly makes sense, and so on. Of course sacrifice sometimes required as well. Ed has spoken to the effect that a full 25 percent of Drow do offer worship to Eilistraee. It clearly should follow that many more would know of her, Vhaerun and Ghaunadaur as well as the other deities of other races. Oh it clearly is possible some Drow only believe in only one deity, Lolth, however should such occur at all it clearly should be less then one percent. Even those would know claims of existence of other deities, just choose to claim they are not divine. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2012 : 15:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
By the way... we know that people are polytheistic but does the drow too? Ed's answer on the percentage of Eilistraeens hints that they are but I just can't picture a Lolthite worshipping another member of the Dark Seldarine. Perhaps to Selvetarm or even Ghaunadaur sometimes but... what do you think?
I think Drow would worship many Gods, not even just the Dark Seldarine. Only "fanatics" as Ed Greenwood says would worship only one deity.
The Gods of the realms actually influence events is the impression I got. If you don't pray to an agricultural deity your crops might fail, if you don't whisper a prayer to Beshaba she might curse you, etc. I think that if a city or nation actually only worshiped one deity calamity would ensue because of not revering the deities necessary for survival.
In Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark they mention that the drow in the city worship the Seldarine powers under other unstated names, for example. You can worship a good deity and not be good and vice versa.
Even if you're lawful good you are probably going to pray to Umberlee a lot if you're a sailor, fisher, or whatever.
I am just going to follow what Ed Greenwood said about good/neutral drow at being around 20%. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 20:01:37
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| Well, in this instance, "fanatics" pretty much describes the majority of the drow race. MOST of them follow Lolth, either exclusively, or nearly so. We know this from the novels and the sourcebooks. The number who actually pay homage to other deities is very small- perhaps no more than a combined total of about 1/3 of their entire population. That includes followers of Vaerhaun, Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, and/or any other deities. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2012 : 23:29:36
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In a link posted previously it states that ~22% of Drow worship Eilistraee and ~12% primarily. Nearly a quarter of drow worship her and presumably other gods are worshiped to a similar extent. (Although worshiping her at all could be like once a year so that would fall under "nearly so" just worshiping Lolth, I guess) If almost a quarter worship Eilistraee alone it seems doubtful it could be only 1/3 pay homage to deities other than Lolth when a good goddess of hunting, beauty, moonlight, etc. isn't very relevant to most Drow living in the Underdark. Ed Greenwood implies it is mainly clergy who are fanatical worshipers of a deity not Drow in general. Almost all of the books about drow are set in Menzoberranzan which is only one smaller than average city. Cities like Sshamath, Eryndlyn, and Llurth Dreier are implied to be more multi-religious and so presumably many other cities are, too. (Not to mention surface communities) Also, worship of a deity in public being banned does not mean people won't worship them in private. The clergy of Lolth can't monitor everyone and Menzoberranzan probably has a greater degree of clerical involvement than most drow communities. I am going to follow what Ed Greenwood says and not follow game products primarily set in one city (and written in a way to appeal to what people want)
Although not in the Forgotten Realms Erelhei-Cinlu has houses that worship The Elder Elemental God (Ghaunadaur??) and Kiaransalee at different times. In the planescape product Dead Gods it says the ruling Lolth worshiping nobility were shocked how many people worshiped Kiaransalee when their civil war started which implies Drow worship other deities in secret a great deal. Feuding clergy don't have the capacity and I doubt desire to monitor what every single person around them is doing. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 00:11:01
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| Yea, several answers I've gotten from Ed and THO seem to imply that Menzoberranzan is the exception rather than the rule of drow culture. That could go a long way towards explaining why a relatively small, unimportant city such as Menzo is Lolth's favorite- it's the one that holds to her ideals more than any other. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 00:12:31
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I believe it's been estimated that a little over 66% follow Lolth in FR, leaving only the other 1/3 to follow anyone else- because we already know that Lolth tolerates NO worship of other deities! While it is mainly clergy that are the "fanatics", most drow also live in houses ruled by those same clergy, who would certainly not allow their households to worship anyone else, lest they fall from Lolth's favor. That was part of the reason Drizzt was forced to leave Menzo, in fact- because his mother and sister scried on him and Zaknafein discussing their feelings about Lolth- which was considered heresy, and punishable by death! That alone shows that those who are even SUSPECTED of heresy are well-watched.
And they most certainly CAN monitor everyone- through Lolth's own messengers. Remember, Lolth "sees" everything through the many spiders that thrive just about EVERYWHERE in her cities (and even on the surface- how else would she have known that Drizzt didn't kill the elf girl?), and her priests use those same spiders as spies (as Malice did to Zak when she sent him after the Dagger of Menzoberra.) Most Lolthite drow would not dare to worship another deity, even in "private", for fear of being spied on. For most, they are simply to indoctrinated with the "Lolth is all" mentaility to even question that they COULD worship anyone else. Even Liriel was shocked by the very notion of doing such. And she was raised as a wizard FIRST.
The FR sources that mention this trend are Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, Drow of the Underdark, the 2nd ed Menzoberranzan book, and City of the Spider Queen 3.5 book. Various other sources (Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Pantheons, among others) have discussed drow religious practices and society throughout the Underdark. While Menzoberranzan is the primary focus of most of those books, they still mention other cities, and how they are mostly run. The non-Lolthite cities (and those who follow other deities along with her) are in a definite minority, according to most of those sources.
Since only about 12% follow Eilistraee exclusively (her clergy, as you pointed out), that leaves a similar number to do so for either Vaerhaun or Ghaunadaur, though I'd lump the Elder Eye in with Kiaransalee. That makes roughly 1/3 of drow in varying combinations of worship of those deities- all others would be perhaps 1 or 2%. The 22% number probaly encompasses that entire range, though it's likely that most of those 22% are more devoted to one than the others, but still offer occasional prayers to all of them.
If we were to take Greenwood's statements literally, then less than half of all drow are Lolthites- and this is completely couter to what we've seen in most of the lore, both in novels and sourcebooks. She clearly holds the majority of Underdark drow under her sway, so the numbers are only a vague guideline at best, NOT a hard and fast rule! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 01:56:45
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Is this topic evolving or going off track, now? Religion in the realms amongst non-humans is a whole other topic entirely.
Where does the 66% number come from? A lot of deities want all worship for themselves but that isn't realistic for any to actually achieve in a world where people actually rely on Gods to govern aspects of existence. Game designers ignoring or not understanding polytheism (Ed Greenwood has said some authors/designers don't seem to be able to write about it) currently make many areas monotheistic like Thay-Bane, Netheril-Shar, Elturgard-Torm, Samarach-Leira(Cyric?), etc. but that is not in keeping with how Ed presents the world he created. Other members of this forum have stated they believe Ed Greenwood's word is law in regards to the realms and that is how I feel about it, too. Unless the creator of the world is wrong we have to assume there is more polytheistic worship all around than is portrayed in novels (just like how gnomes are hardly ever mentioned but exist in large numbers according to Ed).
I agree with ChosenofAsmo that Menzoberranzan is an exception rather than a rule. Due the popularity of the Drizzt Do'Urden novels that is how the Drow have been presented. Alystara all your examples come from Menzo... but even there in one of the War of the Spider Queen books Ryld was aware of Kiaransalee and other drow deities while wondering why Halistra would worship Eilistraee, so their existence can't be that much of a secret. It is *not* clear that Lolth controls has the majority of Underdark drow under her sway otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this.
Someone could argue that of any deity can "see" through the eyes of things they hold sway over. (Depending on which rules you follow) In the 3rd edition books Faiths & Pantheons Lolth is described as having a Divine Rank of 15 while Eilistraee has a Divine Rank of 7. Since we are using numbers that seems to imply Lolth is a bit more than twice as powerful as Eilistraee. I don't know whether that is exponential (like needing way more worshipers to move from rank 14 to 15 than from 1-2 like gaining levels) or if it is a raw number like Lolth has twice as much worship as Eilistraee. But then we must assume that the other Drow deities have ranks of Ghaunadaur/Vhaeraun (6 each) and Selvetarm/Kiaransalee (1 each). The rest of the dark Seldarine have at least a collective divine rank of 20 versus Lolth's 15...and we know Drow worship non-drow deities like Shar, Fenmarel, and so forth.
The deity rules described do not match what deities can do in novels but Lolth can "Sense anything that affects drow welfare the instant it happens at 15 ten days after the events occur. She is similarly aware of whenever drow make war or commit violence against each other". But even if her perceptual abilities exceed this into seeing through the eyes of ALL spiders (Can Vhaeraun perceive through shadows, Eilistraee through swords, Ghaunadaur through slime, or Kiaransalee through undead drow?) that does not mean she can communicate this at will to worshipers, even if she wanted to. They would have to cast a spell to communicate with her like commune or augury. Her clergy aren't aware of all she is so her being able to perceive things doesn't make it so common drow can not worship other deities, who would likely interfere if she tried. Many other deities are working against her at any given time and Eilistraee in that book can perceive whenever a drow is considering rejecting the worship of the evil drow gods if it has an impact on 500 individuals. Presumably Vhaeraun and others would have similar abilities |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 02:27:54
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| I find it realavant to mention Undrek'Throz, which to my knowledge is the most populous drow settlement on the planet, is dominated by male drow and the church of Lolth is a definite minority. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 02:40:09
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| Is there information on Undrek'Thoz aside from the Underdark book? I thought it was ruled by a Menzo like matriarchy supported by male Monks of Lolth. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 02:59:12
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I think that it's incredibly hard for most writers to do a proper polytheistic society. Not only do most writers, being from North America or Europe, come from a cultural background that is entirely monotheistic, but the fantasy genre tends to draw upon medieval history. Thus, a lot of clerics tend towards zealotry and burn-the-heretics-type thinking. A good example of this is the Helmites in the Maztica books, or the attitudes of the Tormites in the Avatar books. It never made sense to me that the priests could act as if the followers of other gods were following false faiths, when they all knew for a fact that each others gods existed. Even Cyric doesn't deny the divinity of the other gods, at least not all the time. With that crazy guy, it's hard to tell. Honestly, I don't like Cyric in any event.
As for the drow, I would imagine that the vast majority are evil, just based on their surroundings. Even in cities that aren't dominated by Lolth, the followers of Vhaeraun or Ghaundahar aren't exactly the type to not take advantage of any softness or goodness that a drow would show. I always saw Eilistraee as a minor faith whose following was limited to common folk (sort of like a heresy in that regard) and with outcasts. Vis-a-vis the other elves we know that there are tons of evil folks amoungst them. The elves of Faerun aren't the good and pure elves of some fantasy genres. They're just as prone to human failings, and I always got the feeling that there were more elves than drow anyways. The elves make up with numbers for the superior individual skills of the drow. Mind you, my feelings on drow superiority might be influenced by 2nd edition, where the drow were just insanely powerful. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 03:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Is there information on Undrek'Thoz aside from the Underdark book? I thought it was ruled by a Menzo like matriarchy supported by male Monks of Lolth.
It gets some coverage in the 4e campaign guide; a male monastic order known as the Blackened Fist along with a few prominently arcane using houses lead a rebellion during the Spellplague and overthrew the Lolthites. Lolth's church still has some influence in the city, but it's clear that they're tolerated rather than feared. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 04:24:13
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Mr Hedgehog, have you read the WotSQ series? She DOES hold sway over the vast majority in those books, as well as in the LP series, Elaine's Starlight and Shadows trilogy, and elsewhere. Further, the spiders I mentioned are considered Lolth's servants, and she is stated as having command over spiders of all sorts, including such spider-like demons as bebiliths, and even driders, when she wishes! This means that she can not only see through their eyes, but can also direct them to do her bidding.
BTW, Sshamath is the city dominated by males (wizards, in fact), not Undrek'Thoz, which was recently defeated by Menzo in a battle. However, its leanings are not mentioned in the sources I have. Further, I did not say anywhere that drow do not KNOW of the existance of other deities, only that most are unlikely to follow them, for the reasons given. Menzo is the most well-documented city, to be sure, but it is hardly an exception, and in fact, is mentioned numerous times as a "typical" drow city. While certainly not the most populous, it IS one of the most powerful, and well-known, both in the Underdark, and on the surface. Ched Nasad is a city much like Menzo, and is detailed in the DD'UGttU book. Eryndlyn is mentioned in Demihumans of the Realms, and is another Lolth-based city, IIRC. Guallidurth is dominated by her clergy, as are/were V'elddrinnsshar(fallen), T'lindhet, and Dusklyngh, among other settlements.
Here is a passage from DD'UGttU regarding the subject of drow religious leanings:
"Due to the dogma of Lolth, the Spider Queen, most drow cities are theocratic matriarchies dominated by the clergy of one of the handful of the dark powers venerated by dark elves. In cities that follow the Way of Lolth, the dark elven populace is typically ruled by several dozen noble houses, ranked in a strict hierarchy. A small group of elite noble houses form the ruling council, led by the premier high priestess of the first house. Each noble house in turn is ruled by a coterie of high priestesses related and ranked in preeminence, with the highest-ranking priestess of each noble house bearing the title of Matron Mother." This is clearly a reference to Lolthite cities, as most of the Vhaeraunite settlements are on the surface, and are ruled by the male priests. Other (non-Lolth) drow settlements have their own forms of rule, such as the example of Sshamath.
And here:
"In cities where Lolth'#146;s worship is unknown or marginal, different power structures emerge. But these too are festeringpools of intrigue and treachery. The only absolute appears to be that if more than one divine power is openly venerated, civil war and societal collapse are inevitable.
The primary goddess of the drow is Lolth the Spider Queen, goddess of spiders, evil, darkness, chaos, and assassins...."
Sshamath is stated as being exceptional in relegating Lolth to a subordinate role. To whit:
"Sshamath is unique among drow cities: a city ruled by wizards, where the priestesses of Lolth are shunted into lesser roles. Once a traditional city of the Spider Queen ruled by matron mothers in accordance with the Way of Lolth, Sshamath evolved into the preeminent market in all Faerûn for enchanted artifacts, spell tomes, and other magical workings."
"Sshamath was established in -4973 DR by the Lolth-worshiping drow of House Sshamath. For
nearly two thousand years after the city#146;s founding, the drow of Sshamath dwelt in accordance with the Way of Lolth.
The defining event in Sshamath'#146;s history was the collapse of its most precious resource: the Underdark radiation known as faerzress. Localized appearances and disappearances of faerzress are not unheard of. These unexplained fluctuations typically mean the collapse of
nearby drow city-states or the establishment of new ones, as the dark elves migrate to new sources of the radiation.
By -2872 DR, five years after the problem was initially detected, Sshamath'#146;s defenders were bereft of drow magic. The city was on the brink of anarchy. Yet fate had already twisted Sshamath#146;s future. In the three centuries before the faerzress collapse, Sshamath'#146;s
matron mothers gave birth to an unusually large number of males. This imbalance led to the sizable expansion of the city'#146;s corps of skilled wizards and a corresponding decrease in the number of Lolth priestesses. Coupled with its relative geographic isolation from hostile rivals, the abundance of wizards left Sshamath uniquely positioned to survive. As the scope of the disaster became apparent, Sshamath#146;s wizards initiated wave after wave of expeditions to plunder Netheril, Oghrann, and other lost realms. Lesser mages repaired or duplicated every artifact acquired, and more senior sorcerers delved into research and fabrication, initiating a burst of creative output that led to countless new magical creations and incantations. Over time, the role of the noble houses and the matron mothers faded (but never disappeared), and true power in the city shifted to those largely responsible for its continued existence-the archmages."
From the 3.5 "Underdark" book:
"Most drow cities are dominated by priestesses of Lolth, the Spider Queen. As the special patron and protector of the dark elves, Lolth DEMANDS (emphasis mine) abject obedience and unflinching ruthlessness from her followers....
Drow who have turned away from the Spider Queen are rare, but they do exist. Good-aligned drow often worship Eilistraee, the Dancing Maiden. Evil drow who choose not to subject themselves TO LOLTH'S TYRANNY(again, emphasis mine) may worship one of the other deities of the drow pantheon, such as Vhaeraun or Ghaunadaur."
From Demihuman Deities (page 30, in the netry on Lolth):
"Only the unforgivable heresy of dark elves worshiping other gods- such as the cities of Vhaeraun worshipers in Sarenestar- unites the Lolthite clergies (of Guallidurth) in common cause..." |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 08:33:17
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I want to jump in here really quickly and make a few comments, I've been wanting to speak up for the last couple of days - but have been busy!
I'm not directing my comments to anyone in particular, but rather at the discussion about religion - especially religion among the drow.
First, I want to make an important point. People speak about polytheism and monotheism as if they were some type of binary system - you either believe in and worship many gods or you only believe in and worship one! This is not how it works.
There is no monotheism in the Realms - this is an impossible belief. Everyone - EVERYONE - knows that the gods are real and that there is more than one of them. This is universal throughout all cultures. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one god. That's it. All other gods are false. In the modern world Christians and Jews for example, don't believe that Zeus ever existed. In fact, they out right reject pretty much every other deity out there on the market. They see them as false.
This is an impossible belief in the Realms because the Gods are literally real. They can and do occasionally display their power. No one walks around debating whether or not Selune is real. They -MAY- debate whether Selune and Sehanine Moonbow are the same deity, simply appearing differently to the Elves and the Humans. After all, there is only one moon, and if you have two moon goddesses - who is really the goddess of the moon? Things like this cause the development of schisms within the faiths and the formation of heresies.
Monotheism is impossible in the Realms, but what actually does exist and IS possible is monolatrism or the practice of monolatry. This is the belief that there are many gods (polytheistic in nature), but that only ONE GOD is WORTHY of worship. In other words, you can acknowledge that other divine powers exist, but only worship one of them.
It is believed by some scholars in the real world that this is how the Abrahamic religions got their start. They started with monolatry and then, over time, evolved into monotheism. In other words, they started with the belief that there were many gods, with only one god worthy of their worship, and then over time evolved their stance into "there is only one god."
You can see strong shades of this in some of the religious texts, which of course, were written in a time when polytheistic beliefs (the belief in many gods) - was actually the norm, rather than the exception like it is today.
For example: Exodus 20:5-6: "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
Very much like this, Lolth is a "jealous god" who is more than happy to direct her faithful to visit pain and suffering onto - not only to the heretic themselves, but onto their families and in particular their children. A great deal of time in Drow society is spent appeasing Lolth and trying to earn her favor, because if Lolth shows her disfavor you - and all that you care about - is going to be destroyed.
I don't believe that Drow are born sociopaths. I believe that most of them live in absolute terror of their goddess, who is utterly cruel, vindictive and merciless to her faithful - and even worse to those who cross her. The absolute terror that the average Drow might feel when praying to another god would be immense, the constant fear that Lolth might be able to read your mind - that you're offering praise to another deity... that she knows what you're thinking, knows what you're feeling, and that she's just sitting there - in the shadows laughing, as you thrash about helplessly in her web.
Drow culture and society is held in check only through fear and domination of the strong over the weak. Those that hold and wield power best in Drow society probably really are sociopaths - biologically incapable of any sort of empathetic emotion. Some of the estimates I've seen for sociopaths among humans ranges between 3% to 5% - I'd wager among the drow this is likely higher, perhaps as much as 10% to 15%.
Obviously, being a sociopath doesn't mean that you're going to turn into a murderer. It just makes being a murderer easier, because a normal person would feel empathy for their victim as they suffer. A sociopath would feel nothing. This would make being a drow and having to serve Lolth much easier for a sociopath than a "normal" individual.
Lolth encourages the practice of monolatry. Neither she nor her faithful deny the existence of the other gods; many of them simply believe that she is the only goddess worthy of worship. Many of her faithful are more than happy to deal harshly with those who embrace other faiths - even in a society where embracing other faiths is allowed.
We know from the lore, as has already been discussed, that some drow worship other deities along side Lolth. I'd like to add to that, by saying that the Drow should not be limited to divine beings alone. I'm quite certain that there are many drow who placate and bargain with demons in the same way they placate and bargain with Lolth. So, while the worship of Eilistraee may not be common in a settlement, the placating of demons may take place along side the worship of Lolth. This may be accepted in some settlements - perhaps to the point of openly having shrines to those demons, to less tolerated in others (you can establish home altars, but publicly placating any other deity but Lolth will get you in trouble).
The issue is that Drow aren't really all that unified. Underdark settlements tend to be functional city-states, with their own politics and culture. Depending on any number of variables this can change how Lolth is viewed and worshiped by the Drow of that settlement.
Drow from other settlements would - most likely - view drow that worshiped and prayed to Lolth differently as heretics. Such drow would be in great danger in opposing settlements.
It should also be noted that it's impossible for the Drow not to know about other deities. The reason for this being primarily two-fold.
First, virtually all Drow engage in some form of slavery. Slaves bring with them their religious beliefs. Now, while it's highly unlikely that a Drow would ever embrace one of the deities of their slaves, it has no doubt happened on more than a few occasions. (In this way, you could potentially have a Drow worshiping Ilmater because one of the slaves he purchased happened to be a devoted follower of Ilmater, who made an impression upon him... and in a moment of need he said a quick prayer to Ilmater out of desperation, which was followed by a vision from that deity, which in turn inspired a secret conversion.)
Second, the deities themselves are real and those individuals who are capable and willing to hear the message of Eilistraee WILL (eventually, unless they are killed first) hear that message. She would eventually visit many of them in their dreams if there was no other way to contact them through mortal worshipers.
Deities such as Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would actively be reaching out to Drow who they believe are capable of hearing their message. Vhaeraun would, for example, eventually reach out to male drow who suffer and chafe under the restrictions of Lolth. Because of this it is very difficult to have drow settlements which ONLY embrace Lolth, or who never hear about other drow deities. (In fact it borders on impossible.) Lolth may be the only deity worshiped publicly in many of these settlements, but behind closed doors there may be people who try to placate other deities.
Some of them may even try and placate both Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) and Lolth at the same time, being opportunistic in their service. For example, a male Drow may feel pulled and "called" to serve Vhaeraun, but when necessary (ESPECIALLY in public) he'd placate Lolth, doing whatever is possible to avoid suspicion and accusation. One of the ways most people do this is by becoming even more fanatical and devoted to said deity in public, while in private their faith and support of that deity is waning. This is especially true, I believe, among deities who rule through fear. Such individuals are "over compensating" for their waning belief.
Spreading out beyond drow a bit, it should be noted that the closest thing we have to monotheism in the Realms are those that worship the Adama. They believe that all the gods are simply the different masks worn by a universal deity. This belief would likely be treated as heresy in many places in the Realms. It might not get them killed (depending on the deities involved), but it would likely result in discrimination and persecution in some places.
Those who worship the Adama likely embrace pantheistic beliefs. Pantheism is the belief that everything is part of a single all-powerful spiritual being. This is actually the polar opposite of atheism, which is the rejection of divinity and higher powers. Many people envision monotheism as the polar opposite of atheism, but the truth is the monotheist and the atheist are likely to agree on a great deal - for example, as previously mentioned - they'd likely both agree that Zeus is a false deity, that he never existed. Someone who is a pantheist wouldn't exactly say that, they'd describe Zeus as humans attempting to interpret a being greater than what they could fathom. Zeus, like the god of the monotheist they would say, is simply one of the many ways of viewing the supreme being that encompasses everything in the universe.
Moving back to the Realms, it should also be noted that Lolth is not the only deity that calls for their faithful to engage in monolatry. Two other deities that immediately come to mind are Cyric and Ghaunadaur.
The Elder Eye explicitly asks its faithful: "Convert all beings to the worship of Ghaunadaur. Slay all clergy of others faiths, plunder their temples and holdings for wealth to better your own lot and to further the worship of Ghaunadaur."
Cyric is even more explicit when commanding his faithful: "Death to all who oppose Cyric. Bow down before his supreme power, and yield to him the blood of those that do not believe in his supremacy. ... Battle against all clergy of other faiths, for they are false prophets and forces who oppose the One True Way."
Do many people - especially lay people - who worship both Cyric and Ghaunadaur pray to other deities? Yes. However, a sizable chunk - especially among the clergy, would exclusively worship them. In other words, they'd engage in monolatry because that is what is commanded of them by their deity. Those who do not engage in monolatry would effectively be heretics.
Finally, there are some in the Realms who do not engage in monolatry but still hold one divine being in higher regard than all the other deities. A good example might be Banites or the people of Lantan in their reverence for Gond. These individuals would be practicing henotheism. They accept the existence of other deities, believe that those other deities are worthy of worship (unlike the individual who engages in monolatry), and may at times pray to those other deities themselves. However, overwhelmingly they'd embrace and pray to one deity who'd they view supreme and above all others.
Hopefully, I was able to shed some light on the diversity of potential beliefs even within the Realms. Just because you acknowledge and accept that there are many deities, does not mean that you automatically view all deities as equally valid and worthy of worship. This belief is just as damaging as those who pervert the Realms with monotheistic logic and thinking. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:30:42
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Although the Seldarine is predominantly good aligned, their elven worshippers are just as fallible as those of any other mortal race. So fanatic worship of certain aspects of a Seldarine dogma can lead to evil behaviour.
Evil worshippers of Corellon likley revel in combat, seeking to create 'beautiful death' and advocating war against N'Tel'Quess at every oportunity.
Evil worshippers of Sehanine love to outwit or befuddle everyone around them, seeking to obscure the obvious at all costs.
Evil worshippers of Solonor don't care who or what their arrows slay, as long as they can hone their hunting skill.
Evil worshippers of Hanali hate the ugly with a passion so deeply rooted, that they seek to eliminate it from their presence wherever they encounter it.
Evil worshippers of Labelas would be so enraptured by philosophies on time that they become wholly detached from the present, unable to act because they prefer contemplation and formulating the perfect advice in hindsight.
Evil worshippers of Aedrie would not care about landlocked life after a life of literally looking down on those without the ability to fly. They'd revel in forcing them and their possesions to the skies through storms and winds.
Evil worshippers of Rillifane would not posses the patience to deal with those who fell trees, especially sacred oaks and such. They rather actively plant seeds and saplings in the corpses of their foes than stand by and coax life from normal forest soils.
Evil worshippers of Fenmarel (of which there are arguably many) advocate a complete severence from social interactions, and woe anyone trying to break their isolation.
Evil worshippers of Shevarash (probably a majority of his worshippers) are sociapathic murderers of drow and everything dealing with Lolth.
Evil worshippers of Erevan are lying, stealing no-goods capable of unimaginable chaos and evil just for a laugh.
All of the above are quite likely to be favored by their patron god despite their obvious evil ways.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 14:52:27
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That's a good and well-reasoned post, and I can agree with big chunks of it. Regarding the drow and their slaves though, I think you're overlooking the racial nature of religion in the realms. I can't really think of any universal deities in the realms. Ilmater appears as a human and is worshipped by humans. The drow worship deities that appear as drow (and Ghaundahar, out of sheer perversity), and their slaves worship their own deities. I always suspected that there was some kind of agreement amoungst the gods not to 'poach', although perhaps that is somewhat suspended for demihumans living in human societies.
I also think that it would be difficult to determine that only one deity was worthy of veneration, given the clear deliniation of responsibilities amoungst the gods. No matter what your station in life, you're going to end up running across the domains of more than one deity. If you want to eat something, Chauntea or Malar should be thanked, if you're trying to find some information then a prayer to Oghma would be in order, if you're looking for love then only Sune can help you, if you're trying something dangerous then it wouldn't hurt to pray to Tymora and placate Beshaba, if you're planning a sea voyage then you should give an offering to Umberlee and unless you live in the South then Auril's favour would be a good thing to have. Unless you're a follower of Cyric (which is to say a total lunatic and a complete monster), it would be hard to come to conclusion that the other gods are unworthy of worship. How can you not need their bounty? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:10:09
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What about the generous dwarves, incurious gnomes, and halflings that are picky eaters?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 15:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Finally, there are some in the Realms who do not engage in monolatry but still hold one divine being in higher regard than all the other deities. A good example might be Banites or the people of Lantan in their reverence for Gond. These individuals would be practicing henotheism. They accept the existence of other deities, believe that those other deities are worthy of worship (unlike the individual who engages in monolatry), and may at times pray to those other deities themselves. However, overwhelmingly they'd embrace and pray to one deity who'd they view supreme and above all others.
Banites do not hold other gods worthy of worship, it goes against the dogma of Bane to have other gods besides him. Bane is monotheistic and seeks it with him being the only one worshipped. Banites acknowledge that there are other gods but they believe that Bane in the end will dominate them all. A banite would never pray to another god/goddess out of fear for risking the wrath of Bane and his clergy unless it is needed to uphold a cover to further the plans of the Black Hand. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 18:52:23
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| They might hold no god to be greater than Bane, but they're definitely not monotheists. A monotheistic faith holds that there is only one god, and Bane's church doesn't make that claim. Even in Zhentil Keep, where Bane's word was law, the city was ruled (in name) by a Leiran, and the city held major temples to Loviatar and Malar, as well as smaller temples to Tempus, Umberlee, Auril and Tymora. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2012 : 20:38:17
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| Zhentil Keep did not consists only of citizens who followed Bane, mind you the populace could follow all kinds of gods, they are not necessarily banite. I speak of those who follow the banite faith not the ones who tend to live in a city run by banites. Of course the banites will try to break down the other faiths within the city but as long as the populace is stubborn enough to not convert the banites canīt do much except sentencing everyone to death, which then would harm the economic aspect of the Keep, which afterall is a merchant city. Now if we look at Mintarn for example you can see a differant approach of a banite run city. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 00:39:15
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| Lord Bane you can't just make things up and expect people to take you seriously... |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 00:57:37
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| If the Banites wished to turn Zhentil Keep into a one-faith city, it was certainly within their power. The Cyricists did the same, and they wielded less power than the Banites did. It also wouldn't be that hard on trade. Zhentish trade is built not on being a market town, but rather on the export of the vast natural resources of the Moonsea. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 01:11:33
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Lord Chess worshiped Mystra. Thats canon.
Ed has stated that most Faerûnians are polytheistic, and a Banite WOULD pray to Umberlee if on an ocean voyage, or to Bhaal to help him get an assassination right, etc. He might even be inclined to pray to Ilmatar or Lathander if his child was sick (but more likely to Talona to alleviate the symptoms).
Only priests and other agents of gods primarily worship one god, and even then there are multitudinous exceptions (like the Chosen of one god being a worshiper of a completely different one). Cyric was insane, but Bane is smart. If you want to rule the world (Bane's ultimate goal) you have to at least appear to be tolerant of other gods, else you will get crushed early-on. You can only show your true hand once you are in-charge. Priests can do whatever they want, and act intolerant, but as for Bane's 'official stance' on such matters... he probably doesn't have any (because then he has deniability when he is accused of crimes by other gods). Only an idiot god would say "slay all other god's priests", since something like that could never be kept hidden.
So I guess I just proved Cyric is an idiot.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 02:22:32
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| Are you sure? Page 120 of Forgotten Realms Adventures has a stat line for him as a triple class F3, formally a W3 and P3 (of Leira). As a minor wizard I'm sure that he would venerate Mystra. And I'm pretty sure that Cyric mocks him regarding his Leiran faith in the novel where Cyric force-converts Zhentil Keep. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 04:59:46
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| Markustay do you mean he worshiped Mystra as well as other deities? I remember that Leira allowed him to hide his obesity from prostitutes... |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 05:50:52
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| Which is odd, if you think about it. I would think it would be more useful to hide your obesity from women whose company you don't pay for... |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 12:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Lord Bane you can't just make things up and expect people to take you seriously...
Good thing i do not take your posts sometimes serious aswell then 
@Neil: Letīs not forget that The Keep was not fully turned into a cyricist town, between running things and having actual full control is two sides of a coin and neither did they kill everyone aswell. Zhentil Keep relies on trade, especially that of the Black Network, if you "cull" those who do that work, who else will step up and run them equally efficient?
@Markus: I never questioned that Bane is smart and i never denied his agenda of taking over the world. The thing is, that the clergy would do anything to keep the faithfull in line and remind people who they owe allegiance to. Most people of Faerun are polytheistic that is true, i do not argue that, but i do not percieve Bane as one who letīs his followers freely pray to whom they wish to. We can discuss it further in PM if you like, with your examples given, or we derail the thread even further. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 15:02:47
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| Exactly. You don't have to kill everyone, just cow them with terrible displays. At any rate, I think that the intolerance of the clergy of Bane probably depends on the individual clergyman, but that Bane himself would hardly punish his clergy for dealing with the other gods in regards to their portfolios. Heck, when it came to Bhaal, Malar and Loviatar, those gods were his subordinates. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2013 : 15:38:31
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| I fear there is a misunderstanding, i never said Bane would punish the clergy for dealing with other gods, i was refering to the worship aspect and invoking prayers. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Evil Elves or Good Drows which one is more rare?
